Deal with it.

[gridlore]

Last night, Rose and I talked about a few things, especially my reactions of polyamory and how people might act at the callahan's annex. Today, I get an e-mail from my sister ranting at about the fact that I *dared* to talk about my personal life with my family!

Attention world! I am the following: a financial/military conservative, socially liberal, somewhat bi, cross-dressing veteran. I consider my marriage to Kirsten to be the single most important relationship in my life. I do not bed hop, and do not think that it is overly healthy, in either an emotional or physical sense. I prefer to actually care about and be interested in my partners.

I do not like being touched. I am constantly amazed by the number of people who seem to think that it is perfectly ok to just grab me two seconds after I meet them. I have known people who couldn't get this clue for years. Free Clue: If you meet me, expect a handshake at most.

I despise groups like PeTA and the Family Research Council equally. I find the world's religions good sources of ethical guidance, but the mythology attached ranges from the silly to the disturbing.

I am a patriot. I once swore to defend this nation and what it stands for with my life if necessary. I may be out of uniform, but as far as I am concerned, that oath stands.

I do not tolerate fools or whining. Take you dramas elsewhere. If you come to me whinging about some problem, I will attempt to find a solution to that problem. This, for some reason, shocks people. If you just want to complain about your life and not do anything about, talk to the mirror. Because I don't give a damn.

I believe that the majority of people living on San Francisco's streets are bums. Make them work for their *food*, not shelter, and you'd be amazed how fast they'd thin out.

I am a sports fan. I love sports. Baseball and football especially, but I'll watch just about anything. I also like mindless action movies. I don't get art films. They bore me. Speaking of art, I think modern art is the biggest fraud on the last 200 years. A painting or sculpture should look like something, even if it is an interpretation of the subject. Koko the Gorilla is a better painter than Jackson Pollack.

The Kinks are ten times the band the Beatles ever were. There has never been a Bob Dylan song that wasn't done better by someone else.

These are some of the things that make me me. I am not the typical SF Bay Area thirty-something geek. Don't expect me to be. If you don't like the person I am, go the fuck away and find something you like more. I am so damn happy to be alive and the way I am that I am not changing for any one. I've done enough of that.

It matters not how straight the gate
How charged with punishments the scroll
I am the master of my fate
The captain of my soul
- Invictus

Comments

Crap...

[dafydd.livejournal.com]

I do not tolerate fools or whining. Take you dramas elsewhere. If you come to me whinging about some problem, I will attempt to find a solution to that problem.

What if you're the one doing the whining? What if the problem is you?

Rose came to you last night with a problem. Are you telling us you choose not to solve it?

Re: Crap...

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

Rose came to me with a problem about what happened when we were taking family photos at the birthday dinner. When then discussed my feelings about your relationship with Kirsten and my feelings about it vs. my dislike of being present for public displays of affection between the two of you. She mentioned to open nature of Callahanicon, and warned me that people are very pro-PDA there. If I am uncomfortable, I'll take a walk.

The whinging I'm talking about is "oh, my job is so awful! I hate it!" Well, put out some resumes, or look at training for a different career would be my reply. But there are some folks who just want to complain for the joy of it, and don't want help. I do not deal well with that

Re: Crap...

[eleri.livejournal.com]

thus the Ask Before Hugging buttons. It's good to know the enviroment you're going into is PDA friendly, that way you can verbaly set boundaries, and step back from the crowd if it gets uncomfortable. Sounds muchly healthy to me :)
We've got plenty of quiet space for walking in, too :)

Re: Crap...

[hopeforyou.livejournal.com]

But there are some folks who just want to complain for the joy of it, and don't want help.

What if they do everything you suggest, but still can't get out of their awful job or unemployment? What then?

I guess this strikes a chord with me because I've been in situations where I've done everything I could think of to change my reality, and then took advice from other people if I missed any bases -- and still couldn't change my reality.

It is at that point that I think it's human to complain, even more so than before when I was doing what I could to resolve my problem. The other times I'm more likely to complain is when I'm worried about something happening which may never come into being -- but if circumstances are similar enough to past experience, then it pushes the worry-button.

Re: Crap...

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

If nothing works, then complaining is warranted. It's the substitution of complaints for action that irks me. My preferred complaint is "I hate X, but I'm doing Y about it."

"I hate my job! I'm trying to find a new one, but I hardly have any time!"

"Have you tried sites like Monster.com?"

"Yes, but no bites so far."

"Want me to post your addy and situation to my LiveJournal? Someone there might be able to help."

"Been there."

"Christ, I waish there was something I could do. Good luck, and let me know waht happens, 'kay?

Re: Crap...

[jemstone.livejournal.com]

Didn't we have that precise conversation at the party? Oi...

-JEM

Re: Crap...

[johnpalmer.livejournal.com]

Me, my feelings on this are that you shouldn't fault someone who needs to let off steam and bitch and complain sometimes... but that doesn't me *YOU* have to be the one to listen.

Basically, I don't think a person should say "geez, but you're a pathetic little whiner! Grow up and stop complaining!" unless the person really *IS* a pathetic little whiner who needs to grow up and take some responsibility for their life. (and PLWWNTGUATSRFTLs are pretty rare)

But the kindly equivalent of "don't let me hold up your search to find someone who wants to listen... please, continue searching." is okay.

There's more to it than that....

[kshandra]

Rose came to me with a problem about what happened when we were taking family photos at the birthday dinner. When then discussed my feelings about your relationship with Kirsten and my feelings about it vs. my dislike of being present for public displays of affection between the two of you. She mentioned to open nature of Callahanicon, and warned me that people are very pro-PDA there.

(I was going to wait till tomorrow night to bring this up, but it just fits here....)

It goes beyond being pro-PDA. They're going to be pro-Kiri-and-Daf. Like it or not, he and I are A Callahanian Couple, and as such are treated as being greater than the sum of our selves. Rose described it when she and I talked on Sunday as "Callahanian-squared." Talk to eleri and vaxjedi. Talk to arson and gesi. Talk to valkyrwench and twfarlan. If peaberry were still alive, she'd be able to tell you the same thing about her and her husband.... They all found each other through the magic of Callahan's Place; I'm sure they've all experienced it before.

I've seen how frustrated you get at Starport when the three of us are there and he-and-I get more attention than you-and-I do. We're going into an environment where he and I as individuals have far more history than you do, to say nothing of he-and-I vs. you-and-I. I'm not asking you to change to fit the mold of those around us; I'm telling you that those around us are just as unlikely to change to fit your mold.

You're expecting people to "deal with it;" that expectation goes both ways.

Re: There's more to it than that....

[eleri.livejournal.com]

BTDT. There are people who had no idea I had another husband. Heck, our very own Doc had no idea I was poly...And I've been on the other side, where people had no idea I was Chris wife, because they saw him and Dawn together. Neither side is easy, and it didn't help that Chris and I were very rarely seen together.

Sometimes presentation is everything.

Re: There's more to it than that....

[gingicat]

Heck Wolf and I, or Wolf and either of his other two Callahanian sweeties, are viewed as people who found each other through a.c (actually, Wolf found me through r.m.f., but that's because Mary the Filker pointed him there...).

I don't think it's a bad thing to be viewed as part of a couple, as long as people *also* view you as an individual.

Re: There's more to it than that....

[gingicat]

PS. Sorry, I missed the point (that's what I get for not reading carefully).

As someone who is poly-friendly, but doesn't find it needful to have additional relationships, I would (and have) found it upsetting if I felt that Wolf, my partner, was putting other relationships ahead of his relationship with me. If other people treated those relationships as more important, I'm not sure *how* I would feel. Left out. Left behind. A third wheel.

It's not a happy feeling.

Re: There's more to it than that....

[kshandra]

We talked about this yesterday, actually.... He actually does understand that the people at the PNW Annex are far more used to seeing dafydd and me as "the couple". We have a local fannish friend who refers frequently to her "invisible husband" (she married a mundane who shows up only for the art auction, if at all) - gridlore sees himself in an analogous position here. It's only if he gets ignored that he'll start having problems, and I understand and respect that.

[twfarlan.livejournal.com]

I have exactly two comments to this.
1) Go you. Your sister was wrong on that one; it's your business with whom you discuss your life, your thoughts, and your happiness.
2) I didn't know you cross-dressed. (shrug) That, by the way, was the entirety of my reaction to it while reading the post. A shrug, and a comment to Ali of, "Huh. I didn't know he did that." I'm normally rather critical of New Age (to rhyme with "sewage") comments like "Follow your bliss," but it seems fitting enough here.

[dizzdvl.livejournal.com]

One of my favorite things to tell people is one word: cope.

I understand your dislike of whining, and I tend to do the same thing. I'm glad I'm not the only one like that :)

[bunyip.livejournal.com]

Great post... It was a very good insight into you, and the free clue is a good thing... I don't mind that it would be a handshake at most, I'd just enjoy meeting you.

[fimbrethil.livejournal.com]

The more I learn about you, the more I like you. And although I'd be tempted to hug at first meet, I will take note of the warning and be happy with a firm and friendly handshake.

I too detest whining. When I do it I don't like myself that much. My attitude is if you have a problem either go solve it or shut up.

As to the attitude of "like me the way I am or go the fuck away" I am so there with you.

Still looking forward to meeting you someday. In fact, more so now.

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

You get a hug. For many reason, most of which is I like you.

Speechless

[fimbrethil.livejournal.com]

Wow and thank you. I'm overwhelmed by that and can't find the right words. But thanks for my "good" cry of the day. Happy tears are always appreciated.

[tsjafo.livejournal.com]

Its nice to get to know you better.

[isomeme.livejournal.com]

Our sister has a point, dude. There is a difference between being honest and being in-your-face aggressive about your lifestyle choices, and you and K crossed it, and have done so in the past (and have been called on it by me when it happened then, too). Your quasi-conservative mom and your sister's new beau just don't need to hear about the details of your adventures in polyamory. You can certainly be plain about who is important in your life (how many times did I say the words 'Paul' and 'Lauri'?), but a family dinner is not the right time to go into who wants into whose pants. And that applies no matter whose pants you're aiming at.

Sorry, end of vent, but on this one I think you really need a rethink. Nobody is telling you who to be, or how to live your life. But context matters.

[vaxjedi]

Context does matter. And I readily admit that I know none of it in this case.

However (you could tell this was coming, didn't you?), I do know when something is that important to a person's life, whether it be religion, sexuality, or whatever, it is difficult to separate it from everything else for the benefit of non-interested and/or intoleratant parties.

I have a name for those people who simply don't want to hear about or acknowledge the critical facets of my life. I call them 'strangers'.

Unfortunately, I have to count people like my grandparents and some old friends for most of my life as strangers.

Once again, I dunno the context. But without it, it certainly smacks of "we don't mind poly people, as long as they act monogamous in public." And that particular ghetto sucks big rocks through short straws.

[kshandra]

I'm rather thoroughly conflating the discussion from Friday with the discussion from Saturday; the only questionable comments I can think of that I can definitely associate with Friday were the jokes about calling dafydd to see where I was when I got back from dropping stuff off at his place - and I hope you'll recall that I said nothing in return. I would appreciate some clarification on where you feel we crossed the line. (Take it to email if you'd prefer.)

[supersniffles.livejournal.com]

"The Kinks are ten times the band the Beatles ever were. There has never been a Bob Dylan song that wasn't done better by someone else."

Right on!!

I've never been close enough with you to comment on the rest. So I'll stick to this bet.

Sure, Suck Me In with a Quote from my Favorite Poem

[yohannon.livejournal.com]

Ah, Invictus. "Black as the pit, from pole to pole...". Of course, I'm probably mangling it from memory.

But I digress.

Interesting series of comments. I really liked the "laying it all out there" approach. I sorta disagree about the Kinks vs. The Beatles, but only because it's apples and oranges in my opinion (though I would agree Ray Davies wit was a bit more rapier). Bob Dylan: Great song writer. 'Nuff said.

The point made about people who didn't want to know about certain aspects of ones life struck home as well...I have three sisters who fall into the "stranger" category, while my mother doesn't. Obviously, there are still details that I don't want to subject my mother to (though I suppose she gets to deal with all that anyway, since she INSISTS on reading my journal entries). It makes me ponder the common complaint of the heterosexual when it comes to queer behavior, the concept of "flaunting" (see also "special rights").

Simply enough, my belief is, if a topic of conversation or practice is ok for one group, it is ok for all. As with most generalizations I'm certain examples can be found that are exceptions, but I'll conveniently overlook those for the time being.

For example, if it's ok for two people to slow dance together, then ANY two people should be able to. It is not "flaunting" to participate in the same activity as anyone else because it makes certain people freak out for reasons that are not entirely clear. For that matter, three people should be able to slow dance as well.

By the same token it's also fine if someone chooses NOT to display certain behaviors. Some people dislike PDA. So what?

I think a side effect of hanging out with kinky people is that eventually you develop a live and let live mentality. That's why I was amused at dressing up like a Nun and slow dancing with two people I love very much (dressed as catholic school girls, of course!), in a public non-kink oriented space (it was a costume party, I should note), rather than terrified. If people can't cope, that's not my problem.

I can empathize with people confronting their fears, and would be happy to help anyway I can. I can't, in good conscience, support their fears or (far worse) give those fears power over my life.

[figmo.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm confused.

I do understand all too well about folks who are more touchy-feely than oneself. There's a guy who used to hang out at Starport who took "hug liberty" with me way before I was ready to give it. This always made me very uncomfortable even though this guy was perfectly harmless (and still is).

There's also the concept of virtual hugs vs. real ones. I am faster to give virtual hugs than real ones.

As for your poly relationship, I think how you three are perceived depends upon who knew who first. Folks who grok it perceive you as a unit of sorts, whereas folks who don't will insist on seeing you as a two-and-one of some sort. That, IMHO, is their problem.

[fimbrethil.livejournal.com]

Me again, weighing in on the poly thing. IMO, it's hard when there is a triad and not a quad. Liam, Harry and I went through similar stuff for a loooooong time. Harry and I couldn't show affection to one another when Liam was around. This didn't change until Rose came along and Liam felt there was equality. It still didn't really change his attitudes but he had somebody else to flaunt so it bothered him less. I know this doesn't help your situation at all, just saying that I understand your position. I myself, sometimes felt uncomfortable if Harry, Rose and I were together and they got too cuddly. It made me feel like that fifth wheel. As to family gatherings, the only family member that knows is my Dad. I still have to pretend we are not a couple with my Mom. She wouldn't understand, would ask too many stupid questions(intelligent questions I would answer but you don't know my mother!)and would broadcast my life over her gossip hotline. The rest of the family is either too narrow-minded or too born again to even listen. Sorry for the rough times. I have an ear if you want to vent. The same applies for e-mail.

[kshandra]

(Apologies from gridlore for not conveying this personally; we've been relegated to our old Win3.1 box - hopefully dafydd can figure out what's wrong with the good machine tonight - and I have far more patience with it than he does.)

IMO, it's hard when there is a triad and not a quad. Liam, Harry and I went through similar stuff for a loooooong time. Harry and I couldn't show affection to one another when Liam was around. This didn't change until Rose came along and Liam felt there was equality.

We discussed this last night, as well. He's supposed to be spending some solo time with eleri this weekend; it may well be that he'll be more comfortable with someone of his own to cuddle up to. Only time will tell, of course.

I still have to pretend we are not a couple with my Mom. She...would broadcast my life over her gossip hotline.

Heh. Sounds like why dafydd avoids discussing relationships with his mother, mono or poly....