The Decline and Fall of the Dwarvish Empire

[gridlore]

About a year ago, I made a post based on my reading of Guns, Germs, and Steel regarding a different take on the traditional fantasy elf. You can read the whole thing if you like. Basically, since the elves didn't have the usual drive to settle down and establish agriculture, they never would have advanced past the "Chieftain" stage - many clans and tribes loosely tied together under the leadership of a (usually) hereditary strongman. No writing, no real metal working, no cities.

Now I'm finishing up Collapse, the "sequel" to GG&S. This book examines why some societies fail in remarkably short periods of time. The Greenland Norse, Easter Island, the Maya.. all successful societies that vanished practically overnight. This book has given me insight into that other fantasy staple, the Dwarfs. Traditionally, dwarfs are highly organized, have advanced (for the genre) technology, and are materially rich. So why aren't they running things?


My answer? They used to run everything. Then their empire collapsed.

I should note that both this and my previous post are magic and divinity light. I'm trying for a more organic look at the shaping of a fantasy world. You can always add magic and gods in careful doses, but I prefer it this way.

Let's return to those thrilling days of yesteryear.. about 11,000 years ago, to be precise. North Africa was a much wetter place with extensive forests and grasslands. Petroglyphs found in Mali and Libya show animals like crocodiles and hippos being hunted. Satellites have found ancient riverbeds and fossil trees have been found in the deepest portions of the Sahara Desert. Let's have our Dwarfish Empire rise in this period in the Nile Delta. The early dwarfs would have the same advantages that allowed the Egyptians of our world to advance quickly. Regular growing seasons, pushes to develop things like calenders, writing, and improved tools. Very quickly we would see a Bronze Age culture spreading across Africa and into the Eastern Mediterranean. I imagine that the Neolithic humans would either be enslaved or allied with the dwarfs. Humans are useful for tasks like herding animals and serving as auxiliary troops (indeed, in the later empire humans are pretty much in charge of all agriculture, but I'm getting ahead of myself.)

Our growing state has an unending need for two things: wood for building and fuel, and more farmland. As the dwarfish population becomes more urban, more resources have to be expended on farming and moving food to market. Forests would be cleared at a dizzying rate. In many places you'd see what we see in the Amazon today; thousands of acres simply burned as a fast way of clearing the land. It wouldn't take long for the effects of deforestation to begin to show up. Topsoil starts getting washed away, deserts begin to grow, and losing enough forest can change the climate.

Meanwhile, the frontiers of the empire have reached the great forests of Europe. Along with vast reserves of metals in the mountains, there are all these lovely trees to harvest! One little teeny-problem.. several thousand illiterate elves armed to the teeth willing to die to protect their forests. Certainly there would be isolated cases where an elvish tribe would ally with the empire when it suited them (and there's your gateway for dwarf cultural influences like writing and small scale metal working to come in) but inevitably one side would break the alliance.

Now things get bad. In Africa desertification is accelerating. The lords of the outlying settlements are seeing their rivers dry up, their crops failing, and since the same thing is happening to every other noble in the area, no real help is on the way. Social order starts to break down as petty wars break out over dwindling resources. Humans, long oppressed by the dwarf lords, begin rebelling and breaking away. In response, the imperial government lays heavy levies on the European colonies for food and wood. Which requires increased warfare with the elves. Many of the colonial lords decide that the empire can stuff it, and retreat to their mine strong holds, securing just enough land to support intensive farming.

The end, when it comes, will be fast. Once it is clear that there is no stopping the marching desert, most of the wealthy will bug out for their cousin's place in the Alps, or wherever. Long simmering conflicts, held in check by imperial power, erupt into warfare. The commoners, dwarf and human alike, will be rioting demanding that Something Be Done. Famine and plague soon follow. A few centuries later, and the desert has claim the great cities, leaving only the Sphinx as witness to the glory that was the Empire.

The survivors, mostly colonies in Europe will find themselves cut off. Surrounded by elves who consider dwarfs to be nothing more than Enemies of Life. Paranoia will be a survival trait. After a few massacres on each side it will become clear that what dmmaus calls "the 5,000 year grudge" has its roots in centuries of warfare.

If you insist on more magic, have the encroachment of the desert accelerated by magical or divine means. Perhaps a ritual designed to stop the sands backfired. Could be why the dwarfs shun magic outside enchantment of objects.

Comments?

Comments

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

Clever! I've read both of those books, and they do make fascinating (if worrisome) reading, as particularly the second one suggests that our society could collapse and disappear in a single generation. *shudders*

[pauldrye.livejournal.com]

That's pretty good.

I need your expert opinion...

[tleigh.livejournal.com]

Hi, I'm a member of the Travelers Aid Sociaty and I have a question.








So, If the death star and.....








No, that's not it. lol

I met you at Starport once, you were a PODS driver then. I know that you're not anymore. But I need a PODS driver's opinion on delivery to my new place on Alcatraz near Shattuck. And I need it soon. I'm willing to pay or barter for this opinion, and provide transportation.

PODS has stopped being willing to put containers on the street, even if I could get a permit. Soo, I've got 4 short driveway/parking spaces. Two together, but under the supports for an outside staircase. And one on each side of that, but at different levels. All have a fairly steep but short slope from the sidewalk up to the parking level, in addition to the slant that takes you from the street to the sidewalk level.

If you tell me it can't be done, then fine, I've got a plan B. To wit, dropping the container at a storage facility, unloading my stuff (groan) into one of their storage spots and having the container picked up the next day or two. Lot's of phone calls later, the only place willing to do so is......Door to Door storage.

[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<tanj!>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

Hi, I'm a member of the Travelers Aid Sociaty and I have a question.








So, If the death star and.....








No, that's not it. lol

I met you at Starport once, you were a PODS driver then. I know that you're not anymore. But I need a PODS driver's opinion on delivery to my new place on Alcatraz near Shattuck. And I need it soon. I'm willing to pay or barter for this opinion, and provide transportation.

PODS has stopped being willing to put containers on the street, even if I could get a permit. Soo, I've got 4 short driveway/parking spaces. Two together, but under the supports for an outside staircase. And one on each side of that, but at different levels. All have a fairly steep but short slope from the sidewalk up to the parking level, in addition to the slant that takes you from the street to the sidewalk level.

If you tell me it can't be done, then fine, I've got a plan B. To wit, dropping the container at a storage facility, unloading my stuff (groan) into one of their storage spots and having the container picked up the next day or two. Lot's of phone calls later, the only place willing to do so is......Door to Door storage. <TANJ!>

If for some reason that doesn't work, plan C. is to empty the container (that I've already packed <sigh>), have PODS pick it up, then have Door to Door storage drop off two of it's containers, which being smaller, will fit in one of the driveways.

Please help.

Re: I need your expert opinion...

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

OK, what they need for the container is a space at least 18 feet in length, 13 feet wide, and 15 feet high. You also need about the same area for the truck to back into and be able to do a straight drop. Drivers can get tricky and maneuver pods into odd spaces, but it is frowned upon.

The space you describe sounds like a no-go for any number of reasons. Overhangs, sloping ground, and it sounds tight.

I myself did numerous pick ups and drops at self-storage facilites. It's pretty common. I don't see why PODS would be unwilling to do that. Call them, and if the first tier phone crew isn't able to help, ask to speak to the solution center.

You have another option. Rent a U-Haul and unload your container either at its current location or at the warehouse (in either Fremont or Hayward.) This at least gets the pod out of your driveway.

[silverstorm2013.livejournal.com]

First let me say I can find nothing wrong with you conclusions. Extremely well thought out. But (and there is always a but) I think your premises about elves only apply to the “wood elves” to use the D&D terminology. “High elves” are described as having huge beautiful cities of marble and other flowery language.

I would assume that a high elven city would still have its respect for nature, big into green technologies/magics, sustainable growth, recycling etc. this could explain why their cities are always described as gleaming. (Using clean burning fire elementals instead of coal/oil/wood means no soot all over the place like in human cities.)

I would love to sit over coffee/beer sometime and argue this one. Its sounds like fun!

Storm

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

Well, obviously the High Elf cultures only rise _after_ contact with the Dwarves. :-)

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

Yup. And "real elves" see them as sell-outs and traitors. I can see many times during the centuries-long conflicts in Europe between dwarf and elf where a local elf chieftain would ally with the dwarves, and gain access to dwarf technology and clutural influences. But just like we're slow to admit just how much the American space program was run by Nazi scientist, "modern" elves would deny that such an exchange of cultures ever took place.

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

How do the High Elves support their populations? Even a medium-sized town would require some sort of agricultural base to keep the inhabitants fed, but we all know that decent, Gaia-loving elves would never cut down trees just to farm. Is it plausible that they can use magic to make fruit and nut trees that produce enough?

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

I'd see that as burning out the trees and the ability of the land to support life rather quickly. Remember the effects of a Haste spell in D&D? You age a few years. Same thing in forcing a grove to over produce.

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

Doesn't mean that the 'civilized' elves don't do it anyway. I can just see them sneering down their pointy little noses at the humans, while their own agricultural practices slowly but surely do even more harm to their beloved forests.

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm doing away with the entire concept of "high elves" for the most part. I'm looking at ways to make these traditional fantasy races be more than "enchanced humans with unusal racial features." The Elves don't build cities or have a written language because the societal structure necessary for such things never occured. The Dwarves lost their empire through natural means.

This is all part of a setting I've been working on for some time where by necessity the gods remain remote and magic is inherently dangerous. So rather than using the old tropes, I'm looking to the real reasons for societal success and failure to build my history.

[silverstorm2013.livejournal.com]

(grabbing a double mocha and warming to the debate)

I still think your counting the elves out to quickly. There are plenty of models in fantasy where you have a culture that is advance yet still in tune with nature.

The Hawk brothers from Mercedes Lackey’s Vladimar series comes to mind. All they were missing from being your classic elf was the pointed ears.

What might be interesting is if instead of having elves who are your barbarians, give them the outlook of living with nature means adapting it so everyone survives.

So to a outsider it looks like a forest. But that’s because the elven city is hidden above you in the huge trees grown by the elf tree mages. Heck just using shape and warp wood you could sculpt a nice house without ever harming the tree. Also you could add a new non-pc class of character, sort of like a alcamist only they work by breeding plants to get new strains. The possibilities are endless, Huge trees that extract metal from the ground without needing to dig for it. Need a well? Pant this seed here and cast “plat growth” and it will bring water up to the surface. Paper is child’s play here. Need ink? Mash that root up with those berries. The reason no one has figured out mitheral is because its not metal but a reed that when it drys and is treated becomes as hard as steal. Herbal medicines will be left as an exercise for the student

I could keep going (and will if you don’t stop me)

Storm

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

Have you read Guns, Germs, and Steel? The problem is that to reach to point where cities are viable, you have to apss through several intermediate steps. Some of the biggest are developing agriculture and domesticating large animals.

Early agriculture is known as "slash and burn" for a reason. The prefered method for clearing farmland is setting fires. This is anathema to the elves, who can survive quite nicely (given their long lives and low birth rate) as hunter gatherers. Give them the traditional intrinsic magical ability, and there would be no need for them to form a settlement larger than a winter camp.

Increasing urbanization leads to the need for new crafts, requiring specialization. You develop writing to help with accounting, engineering becomes vital as you need to irrigate fields, store food, and keep the nasty barbarians away from your citizens.

The crux of my argument regarding the elves is that either through lack of need, or some mystical "defender of nature" aspect, they don't take the first steps towards urbanization. Much like the people of New Guinea who never needed to develop agriculture in the lowlands (the highlands were a different story.)

Exposure to and war with the dearfs changed that view a little, but cultural change is slow, especially in a race that lives for centuries. And the ways of the dwarfs and men are seen as evil.. destroying the forests, caging life; things that make the blood boil in a good elf.

Now as time passes, more elves will come to see the advantages of the settled life. Which is why in my setting most of the elves fled to England. Those left in Europe are either hiding in the vast German forests or have become "civilized."

Your argument is valid from a story-telling point, but I'm building from the ground up using what happens in the real world and applying it to the major races of fantasy.

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

What are you doing with Orcs and Dragons?

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

For my setting, the goblin races occupy the same niche as the Mongols did in ours. Severely factionalized with constant clan warfare until a very strong leader can unite them. Because of the ancienbt dwarven empire, you rarely see goblins west of the Ural mountains (although they have been creeping west steadily for the last few centuries, something is happening in the distant steppes...)

Dragons are a special case. The majority are degenerate beasts, brutal, unintelligent, and a menace. Some retain the greatness of the first true dragons, and are intelligent and extremely powerful. Prague, the city of mages, reported is ruled by such a dragon. He sits on the Council of Nine disguised as a human mage. When his diguse ages appropriately, he replaces himself.

Such dragons are extremely rare.

[pauldrye.livejournal.com]

It's not necessary to domesticate large animals in order to have cities. The Mexican cultures never did, and Tenochtitlan may have been the largest city in the world in its day.

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

Good point, but the Aztecs did practice extensive agricuture and aquaculture. And their lack of large domesticatable animals prevented them from spreading.

[pauldrye.livejournal.com]

It's unclear *that's* the case either. I strongly suspect it had more to do with primitive governmental structures than anything else. The Inca had an empire several thousand kilometers long, and a good fraction of the area of the Roman or Chinese empires.

Granted the Inca had llamas, but those are neither draft or riding animals as I suspect you are implying for "large domesticable animals".

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

GG&S addresses the failurte of Mesoamerican cultures. My copy is buried right now, but the Inca Empire wasn't as unified as most people think.

[notthebuddha.livejournal.com]

Llamas can be used as draft animals, though I don't think any Precolumbians had the technology to make large enough teams of them to equal a pair of horses.

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

Some of the biggest are developing agriculture and domesticating large animals.

The elves might have an advantage with that second one. Why domesticate animals, when you can get superior results just by Charming them?

Jane you ignorant slut.

[silverstorm2013.livejournal.com]

No I have not read Guns, Germs, and Steel. But I do remember some of my Anthropology and history classes.

Ok counterpoint 1. Domesticating animals. There is no reason elves can’t do this. In fact the Elf quest series has elves riding domesticated wolves. Also If you can talk to the animal (which I’m sure a nature loving elf can do) it makes it much easier and faster. Of course it would be less like domesticating and more like a partnership. But it works about the same for practical purposes.

2. Slash and Burn agriculture: you need to do that IF you have a rapidly expanding population that you need to feed. Since elves have long lives and low birth rate their not going to need to expand their farm land nearly as quickly as a human city will. Also using “Eleven nature magic” (patent pending) they could get a larger harvest from the same acre then a human farmer could.

After doing some quick research it seems that some scientists believe that the Mayan’s did NOT use Slash and burn. And I think we can agree the Mayan’s were NOT a bunch of primitive tribes running though the forest.

Copied from here http://www.aaanativearts.com/article965.html

“In slash-and-burn agriculture, people clear the land to plant corn, for instance,” he said. “They get 100 percent productivity the first year, 60 percent the next year, and something less than that afterwards. So in three to five years, the land is basically useless, and they have to move on.” In a sparsely populated region, slash-and-burn agriculture might work, but Mesoamerica around 800 A.D. was one of the most densely populated areas in the pre-industrial world. “Slash and burn wouldn’t have enabled a population to grow to that size,” he said.

The author goes on to talk about using irrigation to farm land that you normally couldn’t as apposed to destroying forests to gain farm land.

I think that’s enough of me being pompous in your live journal for now. I want to thank you for opening this topic up. Its been fun playing point counter point with you.

[blueashke.livejournal.com]

Oooh Lackey mention! Sorry, new to this journal and already in heaven...

I find the choice of determination of the probable cause of the decline of dwarven civilization absolutely fascinating, though I concur with the alternate possiblities behind elven influences.

Boy that sentence had a lot of prepositions... lol