The stupid, it burns!!!

[gridlore]

I just had door-to-door Christians come by.

Nice couple of zombies, repeating what they learned by rote and obviously puzzled when I failed to immediately drop to my knees and scream "praise Jesus!"

One of them mentioned that the hurricane currently swamping New Orleans was God's punishment for Mardi Gras.

"OK, but why would God punish people for holding a Christian festival?"

"Mardi Gras has nothing to do with Christ!"

"Au contraire! Mardi Gras is a traditional week of excess leading up to Lent. It has Papal sanction which is what mattered when the tradition began."

I then had to explain Lent. And that for more than half of its history, there were only two major churches following Jesus, the Roman Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox.

They had no idea who Martin Luther was.

I was growing tired of them, and politely said it had been interesting chatting, but I am an atheist and really not interested. That evidently was a keyword in their little 64k brains, for it triggered another speech.

"Can you prove God doesn't exist?"

"Nope, can you prove he does?"

That stopped them for a second. So I went in for the kill.

"How about Santa Claus, is he real too?"

"Of course not!"

"Prove it."

More silence and troubled looks between them. Here they were fucking up my Sunday trying to save me, and I was shaking them up.

"I mean, I've seen Santa Claus, spoken too him, sat on his lap.. either of you ever see Jesus?"

"Well, noo.."

"And when I was eight I got the Guns of Navaronne play set! No way would my parents buy that for me, so it had to be Santa, right? So how can you say God and Jesus, who nobody sees, hears from, or gets cool presents from, is real, while Santa, who is in the bloody Macy's parade every year, isn't?"

"Well, those are people dressed as Santa, not the real thing."

"Prove it. Prove that every single person with a jolly beard and a red suit is not Santa."

It was obvious that their training in door-to-door annoying had included the lesson "never walk away when you have a conversation going". I decided to show mercy.

"Look, you seem like a nice couple of kids. But I have a burrito to feed and a cat to throw in the microwave, so i have to cut this short. Just remember that at one time you believed with all your heart in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and for all I know the monster under the bed. These were cultural lies you were told, and you got over learning the truth. Now you still believe in another being you can't actually see. I ask you to consider this: what is the difference between the stories you were told about Santa Claus and the ones you were told about God? Have a good day!"

Last I looked they were out on the sidewalk arguing.


Crossposted to gridlore and mock_the_stupid

Comments

[isomeme.livejournal.com]

It never ceases to astonish me that people are willing to practice religions without studying them. I would have started laughing uncontrollably as soon as I discovered they didn't know who Martin Luther was. Amazing.

[kengr]

The prime tenet of most of the fundies is that you *aren't* supposed to think for yourself, just believe what the preacher tells you is true.

And Martin Luther must be spinning in his grave, since that was one of the things that was the *basis* of Protestantism. Studying the Bible on your own and deciding for yourself what it means.

After reading this and a few other posts today, I suspect that a good tactic with many would be bringing up some Biblical verse (preferably in the New Testament) that the fundies try to ignore. And when they protest ask them *why* they think it doesn't apply. Given that their answer will be along the lines of [name] says so, you can then go for the kill:

"If you are Christians, aren't you supposed to be following *Christ's* teaching, not what someone else tells you they are?"

[karmabreeze.livejournal.com]

Funny how today Catholics (outside of the clergy) tend to be more free-thinking and open-minded than the "free-thinking" splinter sects originally were... how many other Christian sects have openly embraced Darwinism as a pliable theory? I think it's rather indicative of Catholicism shifting to more of a cultural heritage and perhaps a little away from a rigid faith.

Anyway... that got a little off topic ;-)

[kengr]

Well as a (very) lapsed Catholic, I see the Church a bit differently. I fully expect that unless Rome changes its attitude soon, the American (and possibly Canadian) Catholic churches are going to break away. Or at least large numbers of them. There's just too big a dichotomy between the official policies and what even the younger priests believe.

Of course, the US isn't turning out a lot of priests these days, so we've got the problem of priests who aren't really part of the local culture.

And the recent court decisions about dioceses filing bankruptcy and the property of the parishes in said dioceses (basically, that the parish churches and schools can be sold off to pay judgements against the dioceses) are going to alter things a lot as well.

[karmabreeze.livejournal.com]

It took a long time for me to come to terms with my own Catholic upbringing. In my experience, your typical Catholic leads a nearly double life, split between the church and their daily existence. This isn't just true of the United States, but also of Ireland and Italy. We're sometimes referred to as "cafeteria catholics" because we pick and choose those aspects of the faith that appeal to us and happily ignore those that do not without batting an eyelash. In short, we're thinkers who make our own decisions about what's right for us. There is definitely a large split between the clergy and the parishioners, but I don't think it's such a large split between North America and Europe as you believe. The American church does have a reputation for being more progressive than the European churches, but overall I think that Rome mostly embraces the differences in personalities between the various countries where Catholicism is dominant. I don't think that we're anywhere close to a jumping off point, especially not before we see who Benedict's successor will be since all seem to be in agreement that he's really just a temporary pope. The clergy is strict and stodgy when it comes to doctrine, but then there's the rest of us, and we really do tend to take everything that comes out of Rome with a salt lick. I'm not a church-goer by any stretch, but I do identify myself as Catholic because I see it as my cultural heritage, much like people are ethnically Jewish - though not quite the same since Catholicism isn't as ethnically specific.

As to the various church scandals, all I can say is that the church is not immune to the criminal elements that pervade all society... I'm sure other countries have their fair share as well, but that those societies aren't as litigious as the United States, and the United States' self-centered media bubble wouldn't cover similar scandals in other countries anyway. The media does often seem to have it out for the church and likes to sensationalize anything remotely resembling a scandal. On the other hand, the upper eschelons of clergy do need to be more responsive to complaint, as well as a few lessons in media savvy.

"As to the various church scandals"

[capplor.livejournal.com]

My read on this has nothing to do with "media". What it is about is authority, and power, and the logical consequence of the doctrine of papal infalibility. These sorts of scandals could NOT happen in a Presbyterian church, not because Presbyterians are any better, but because higher authorities could NOT hush it up, and they do NOT have the power to assign the offender to a new congregation. Individuals can be rotten, but the true scandal is about what happens afterwards.

[kengr]

Reminds me of the time I got into a conversation with some teen "born-again" types. I was in my twenties at the time so it wasn't as weird as it sounds.

It was sparked by a t-sirt a friend was selling. "Give me that Old Time Religion" with a pentagram and various religious symbols in and between the points.

I actually got them down to "I know because God tells me so". But I lost them at "So how do you know that the voice in your head isn't Satan?"

[nolly.livejournal.com]

Wow. The ignorance astounds me. I'm pretty sure we studied Martin Luther in world history, even if I hadn't grown up in a scholarly Christian tradition. I could almost for give them Mardi Gras, if they aren't from a strongly Catholic area, but...wow.

[filkerdave.livejournal.com]

Hell, *I* studied Martin Luther, and I grew up Jewish.

I think gridlore let them off easy; he didn't mention the Flying Spaghetti Monster at all.

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

Heretic! Bow to the Invisible Pink Unicorn!

[lafinjack.livejournal.com]

Blessed be her holy hooves.

[bunyip.livejournal.com]

Nice work, mate

[collie13.livejournal.com]

ROFL!! Oh, man, that was definitely a "good thing I wasn't drinking!" moment. You can have my baby, if you want! ;)

[dandelion-diva.livejournal.com]

If I haven't mentioned exactly how much you rock, well, I'm mentioning it now.:)

Gessi

[riverheart.livejournal.com]

Here via my husband, charlesks. I love the above. That's terrific!

There is now a million dollar challenge - a million dollars to anyone who can prove that Jesus was not the son of a Flying Spaghetti Monster.

[chriso.livejournal.com]

Thank you for giving these two idiots the chance to think about their faith rather than following blindly what they have been told to believe.

And this is from someone who considers themselves a follower of the Christian faith. I think every person who believes in any faith should think for themselves, read their religion's sacred writings for themselves and make up their own minds about what they believe or do not believe. I agree with many things my church teaches, and I also disagree with many of its teachings.

[occamshairbrush.livejournal.com]

If only you weren't in such a tiny minority.

[benkenobigal.livejournal.com]

You have a burrito to feed and a cat to throw in the microwave??? Confusion upon confusion. I'm surprised their heads didn't explode.

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

Old Discordian trick. When you've got your victims reeling, through in a crossed-up reference like that. It's like a grenade with a long fuze... ten seconds later, and BOOM! What you said explodes in their heads.

Would You Believe...?

[aurictech.livejournal.com]

The old cat-in-the-microwave trick (http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/779955.html). I can't believe they fell for it!

Point-and-Smite Interface?

[aurictech.livejournal.com]

Let me leave aside, for the moment, the question of whether the above-referenced deity exists. I would prefer to address the contention that Hurricane Katrina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Katrina) is a smite-fest* intended to punish New Orleans for hosting Mardi Gras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans_Mardi_Gras).

1. Why would an omniscient, omnipotent deity smite a city a full six months after the offending event? Wouldn't smiting New Orleans during Mardi Gras provide a more effective punishment?

2. Even if one stipulates that New Orleans is smiteworthy, isn't it rather clumsy for an omniscient, omnipotent deity to smite the neighboring state of Mississippi? Presumably, the transgressions of Mississippians are less iniquitous than those of New Orleanians; otherwise, the missionaries in question should have cited Mississippi's sins as the reason for Katrina's unwelcome arrival.

Or, just perhaps, the two missionaries have juxtaposed their fourth and sixth points of contact....

*I would link to the online game Smite, but I'm away from my home computer.

Re: Point-and-Smite Interface?

[filkerdave.livejournal.com]

Why would an omniscient, omnipotent deity smite a city a full six months after the offending event?

Vogons are in charge the the Heavenly bureaucracy.

Re: Point-and-Smite Interface?

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

C'mon, according to the Bible God isn't really good at keeping up with transgressions. After all, he had to send an angel to report on Sodom and Gommorah, couldn't keep track of Stan, and had to ask him where he'd been in Job, and didn't notice mankind was corrupt until the only option left was drowning everyone.

He couldn't even keep track of the only two humans on Earth and one snake! So I think a six month turnaround is pretty good, mister!

Re: Point-and-Smite Interface?

[aurictech.livejournal.com]

Well, if after six millennia in business, customer service is still this shoddy, I think I'll have to take my divine worship business elsewhere!

Re: Point-and-Smite Interface?

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

I'd suggest, after seeing you at a couple of cons, that Bacchus might be the deity for you!

Re: Point-and-Smite Interface?

[lafinjack.livejournal.com]

Don't forget that Katrina left the French Quarter mostly untouched.