An interesting read

[gridlore]

What if the United States was like Iraq?

President Bush said Tuesday that the Iraqis are refuting the pessimists and implied that things are improving in that country.

What would America look like if it were in Iraq's current situation? The population of the US is over 11 times that of Iraq, so a lot of statistics would have to be multiplied by that number.

Thus, violence killed 300 Iraqis last week, the equivalent proportionately of 3,300 Americans. What if 3,300 Americans had died in car bombings, grenade and rocket attacks, machine gun spray, and aerial bombardment in the last week? That is a number greater than the deaths on September 11, and if America were Iraq, it would be an ongoing, weekly or monthly toll.

Comments

Well...

[seawasp]

... the word was "improving", not "better than America".

You'd have to look at statistics (from whatever timeframe suits your political preferences) and determine whether Iraq is doing better or worse than it was at the timeframe you have selected.

I doubt even the optimists would have said that Iraq would come to equal our level on such statistics.

[robertprior.livejournal.com]

From the same chap:

I have a sinking feeling that the American public may like Bush's cynical misuse of Wilsonian idealism precisely because it covers the embarrassment of their having gone to war, killed perhaps 25,000 people, and made a perfect mess of the Persian Gulf region, all out of a kind of paranoia fed by dirty tricks and bad intelligence. And, maybe they have to vote for Bush to cover the embarrassment of having elected him in the first place.

How deep a hole are they going to dig themselves in order to get out of the bright sunlight of so much embarrassment?

I'm afraid he's right...

[dekarch.livejournal.com]

made a perfect mess of the Persian Gulf region

What in the name of God makes you think the Persian Gulf region HASN'T been a perfect mess since that camel thief trashed the Persian Empire?

You optimist...

[seawasp]

There has been fighting going on in that region since before any recorded history, apparently. No one knows "who started it" and the fighting has gone on and on. Until they actually ALL (not just some, ALL) enter the 20th century (forget the 21st) in their attitudes as well as their technology, the fighting will continue.

Re: You optimist...

[dekarch.livejournal.com]

Nah, before the Camel Thief, the Persians and Romans played out their version of the Great Game in the Levant, along the borders of Mesopotamia, and in Armenia. But it was just a back-and-forth balance of power thing. Internally things were quite peaceful, or one or the other empire would crucify your butt.

Then we have a truly destructive war where Persia pulls the upper hand for about a generation but can't quite win it. Heraclius the Great, Emperor of the Romans, pulls of a crazy stunt moving his army by sea to Armenia, invades the Persian homeland, sacks Ctesiphon, and trashes the Persian Empire so badly that when that filthy camel thief and his accomplices come screaming out of Arabia (until then a minor backwater not considered important enough for either empire to occupy) they actually toppled the Persians, and took Egypt, Palestine, and Syria away from the Romans.

And the existence of Islam is the root of every problem in the Middle East since then.

Oh, and the Arabs have a very 20th century attitude on some subjects. Irrational hatred, raving paranoia, fanatical loyalty towards a charismatic leader, and a desire to turn large numbers of Jews in air pollution are VERY 20th century attitudes.

Re: You optimist...

[robertprior.livejournal.com]

And the existence of Islam is the root of every problem in the Middle East since then.

An odd take on history, not in accordance with my reading on the subject.

Since this is my party..

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

before the Camel Thief

The word you are searching for is Mohammad. Further use of slurs like that will result in your being banned from journal. I manage to refrain from using the amusing terms I've heard for Jesus out of respect for those who sincerely believe him to be the messiah. Since at least two Muslims read my list, I would like you to do the same.

Oh, and the Arabs have a very 20th century attitude on some subjects. Irrational hatred, raving paranoia, fanatical loyalty towards a charismatic leader, and a desire to turn large numbers of Jews in air pollution are VERY 20th century attitudes.

And all blacks like fried chicken, gay men are all effete little fairies, and Jews are all misers with hook noses, right? I mean if you're going to start throwing out stereotypes, why stop with one? Let's make easy, prejudicial labels for everyone, and that will make it so much easier to dismiss people out of hand.

If you want irrational hatred, raving paranoia, fanatical loyalty to a charismatic leader and a desire to turn a particular group into fertilizer, take a nice long look at these sites:

http://www.chick.com/

http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html

Both Jack Chick and Fred Phelps use Jesus to spread hate. I've dealt with the Phelpsoids before. They cheer when homosexuals get killed. And they're Christians!

Or so they claim. Like the Islamic fanatics, they pervert every meaning of their faith to support their hatred. There are over a billion Muslims in the world.. a tiny handful are extremists who actually believe that killing innocents will get them into Paradise.
Much like the lunatics who kill women's health doctors - even though the Bible makes it clear that killing is wrong, and judgment is for God!

Re: Since this is my party..

[robertprior.livejournal.com]

Read his LJ. I quote:

"Life is pretty good. Started an argument on someone else's livejournal about religion and politics. Should be interesting."

Re: Since this is my party..

[dekarch.livejournal.com]

See Battle of Badr, one of the formative points in the history of Islam. Attack by Mohammed and followers on an escorted trade caravan. Detailed discussion of division of the spoils, a significant part of which was assigned to Mohammed. Significant portion of spoils were camels, hence Mohammed can at least be said to have conspired to commit theft and to have recieved stolen goods. 8th Sura of the Koran discusses this point, as well as the secondary issue of taking the prisioners hostage and requiring them to pay a ransom. Hence camel thief is as honest a descriptor as "Judean radical agitator" is of Jesus Christ.

Regarding my "stereotypical" attitudes regarding Muslims, one has to ask precisely how much time you have spent in a Muslim country? A year was enough for me, thank you.

Re: Since this is my party..

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

So you won't mind me referring to Jesus as Whip Boy? After all, he did go postal on a group of legitimate businessmen.. an act that would have resulted in his arrest and imprisonment in our society.

I have Muslim friends, know the history, and spent enough time in Georgia to have interesting attitudes about some Southern Baptists.

Oh, and speaking of history. Taking of spoils was an accepted part of war up until the 20th Century. See the Crusader's sack of Constantinople for a great example of Christian troops doing this (Or the Boxer Rebellion for a more modern example.)

[angeleyes8410.livejournal.com]

Wow. I had thought of those things but never seen it written and the statistics.