AQOTM

[gridlore]

Wow. Over in alt.atheism, we have two Quote of the Month contests. One for the atheists, and one for the theists who plague the group. The TQOTM is usually spectacular examples of stupidity. The AQOTM is usually in response to the theists. Read the winners here

This month, I have been nominated (and seconded) by two different sets of people!



> "For those that do not feel they NEED a savior .. let me ask you ..
> Have you ever lied? Or stolen? Or cheated? If you answer "yes" to any
> of these, then you have sinned. Now honestly, can you see sin and God
> in the same room?"

This would be the same God that killed every living thing on Earth
(except for a tiny boat) in the flood? The same God who let Satan
torment Lot on a bet? The same God who admits to be the source of
evil? That God? Debbie, he's not just in the same room with evil..
he owns the bloody factory.

Or would, if any of it was true.

So now, at the end of the month, we all vote. The winner gets a shiny plaque from the Evil Atheist Conspiracy (which does not, of course, exist.)

Comments

[nolly.livejournal.com]

The Ark wasn't exactly tiny, for the record; closer to the size of the Titanic, if I recall correctly. Tiny in a cosmic sense, perhaps, but not as boats go.

And I think you mean Job, not Lot.

As for your third point, I'm not entirely sure what you're referencing, so I won't address it.

[isomeme.livejournal.com]

Yep. Lot he let off the hook because he was such a nice guy. What with offering his daughters to the slavering mob outside his house, in order to buy more time to chat with the WMD-toting angels, and all. :)

[nolly.livejournal.com]

Eh, I think it was more a favor to Abraham than anything Lot deserved.

[isomeme.livejournal.com]

It definitely helps to have powerful friends of the family. :)

[aurictech.livejournal.com]

Y'all sure that Jehovah isn't a Louisiana politician?

[aurictech.livejournal.com]

As good a time as any to link to the Old Testament Text Adventure (http://web.archive.org/web/20011216222755/http://www.princeton.edu/~ahutgoff/otadventure.html). ;-)

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

I always get those two confused.

Big for a boat, but to shove two of every species on Earth into? Plus their feed?

There are a couple of verses where God announces that he created everything, including evil.

[isomeme.livejournal.com]

Not to mention the fact that two of everything doesn't constitute a successful breeding population for most chordata. Even with very careful selection of maximally-varying genetics, I've seen estimates that you need at least twenty individuals to avoid severe inbreeding problems.

Of course, you can say that God miraculously overcame the inbreeding issues, but at that point, you have to wonder why a deity who could do sophisticated gene-splicing in bulk using only the power of his mind needed a boat and Noah and all that. Why not just wish them all into a nature preserve on Tau Ceti II until the flood's done? Or just create beings who behave themselves better, rather than punishing people for acting like they're built to act?

Ah, well.

On the question of God having created evil, this was fought out in the early Church councils. The opposite view leads to dualism, as you have to posit a God of Evil powerful enough to resist getting swatted by the God of Good. This was theologically unacceptable, and hence declared heretical (the "Manichean heresy"). Alas, a necessary consequence of accepting no competition for the one God is that the one God is responsible for everything that happens. This is where we fade off into the "mysterious ways" non-explanation.

[nolly.livejournal.com]

7 pairs of the clean ones, and you can probably skip everything aquatic, though fresh vs salt water becomes interesting. Some of the birds could probably nest on the roof, too.

As for evil, and omniscience, and omnipotence, and free will, and all that fun tangly stuff, I'm just going to point y'all at this bit (http://www.livejournal.com/~meowse/14576.html) by the lovely meowse, who's much better with words than I am, as he captures my perspective pretty accuately.

[arib.livejournal.com]

There are a couple of verses where God announces that he created everything, including evil.

Pretty much, yeah.

So?

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

Many of the alleged Christians who come barging into the group keep saying that "God is pure love" and evil is all our fault. They get most upset when we point out the verses that directly contradict them. That's usually when they announce that we are all going to hell.

I had a chance to bring you up recently. Someone accused me of being a "shabbos goy", a term I didn't know. After having it explained, I brought up our discussions at the Annex of approved work on the Sabbath and how it was my understanding that you could have other people do the work for you. I specifically mentioned the idea of just leaving the car door open but note offering you a ride.

[arib.livejournal.com]

I've never heard "Shabbos goy" leveled as an accusation, it's just something one does on occasion.

I have a cousin who lives in Monsey, NY, a large, mostly Jewish town located just outside of NYC. When he and his family first moved in, their neighbor Joseph (who's also the Shabbos goy for the neighborhood), walked up to my cousin while his back was turned and started a conversation in Yiddish, which my cousin carried on without looking at Joseph.

That is, until Joseph introduced himself as "Yossele, the shvartze gonnif." (Directly translated this'd mean "Joey, the black (as in African American) thief").

Cousin wheeled around, saw who he was talking to, and they both cracked up.

[arib.livejournal.com]

So now, at the end of the month, we all vote. The winner gets a shiny plaque from the Evil Atheist Conspiracy (which does not, of course, exist.)

Which doesn't exist, the plaque or the conspiracy? :-)

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

Yes.

[meowse.livejournal.com]

Mumble. I's a Christian. I's also a scientist. These two perspectives are rarely in conflict.

When there exists a perfectly adequate explanation (http://www.nationalgeographic.com/blacksea/) for the prevalence of flood myths in middle-eastern primitive cultures, actual geological evidence of something which would indeed have seemed to the people of the time like a "drowns the whole world" flood...I can't imagine why any sane and/or rational (either one should suffice) Christian would continue to hold to a literal "the earth was covered with water to a uniform depth of at least 29,035 feet" flood.

*sigh*

I don't have any problem picturing God saying to Noah, "Make yourself a big frikkin boat, and put all your farm animals in it. No, really. I know you're 150 feet above lake level. I know it *never* floods this high. Just...work with me here, Noah." And Noah, he says, "Sure, God, whatever you say, man..."

And then wham, down comes the land bridge, and in comes the Mediterranean, and when they write it down? "God drowned the whole damn world, no, we mean it, the whole damn thing, every city we knew about, every city we ever *heard* of, all underwater. Fear tha' big God!"

This is not rocket science, people. Then again, these days rocket science isn't rocket science. But I digress.

Just...arguing about the size of the ark, when it's obvious where the story came from...*sigh*

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

Yup. The Black Sea flood is an excellent candidate for the basis of the Genesis flood. The survivors reach Mesopotamia saying "The Gods destroyed our entire way of life!" Over the generations, it goes to be the entire world, and rafts of farm animals become two of every species.

Just to be clear, I don't have a problem with religion or religious people in general. It's the certain brand of theist (usually Christian) that we get in a.a. who can't understand that a lot of what is written is myth, or allegorical, and insist that every single word is literal fact. They invade our safe little NG, and act like idiots. So we treat them like idiots.

Douglas Berry, Hoher Priester der Schmerz
Bad War Movie Brigade, Golden Apple Corps
All Hail Eris, All Hail Discordia!