Faith in humanity: ZERO

[gridlore]

Wal-Mart worker dies after shoppers knock him down

A worker died after being trampled by a throng of unruly shoppers when a suburban Wal-Mart opened for the holiday sales rush Friday, authorities said.

At least three other people were injured.

Wal-Mart Stores Inc., in Bentonville, Ark., would not confirm the reports of a stampede but said a "medical emergency" had caused the company to close the store, which is in Valley Stream on Long Island.

Nassau County police said the 34-year-old worker was taken to a hospital where he was pronounced dead at about 6 a.m., an hour after the store opened. The cause of death was not immediately known.

A police statement said shortly after 5 a.m., a throng of shoppers "physically broke down the doors, knocking (the worker) to the ground." Police also said a 28-year-old pregnant woman was taken to a hospital for observation and three other shoppers suffered minor injuries and were also taken to hospitals.

OK, time to end this Black Friday farce. No more doorbuster sales, no more limited time specials. And anyone who lines up hours before opening should be ticketed for loitering.

Comments

[notthebuddha.livejournal.com]

So you don't line up for giants or music tix before they go on sale, ever?

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

I buy Giants tickets online. And back when I did line up for concert tickets, we didn't break down the doors and trample Bass employees into the ground. Hell, I grew up going to music festivals like Day on the Green, and we managed to race for prime seats on the lawn without killing anyone!

[notthebuddha.livejournal.com]

Not you personally, but plenty of other people have been trampled in the rush at music and sports events. You seem awfully quick to deny shopping fans the same freedoms.

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

I've never heard of anyone being trampled to death in the US or Canada getting tickets. Getting into the show? The Who in Cincinnati back in 1979 or thereabouts.

And it's not a freedom. It's poor crowd control coupled with offers that encourage a mob mentality. There is no right to trample your fellow man to death in search of bargains.

[notthebuddha.livejournal.com]

There is no right to trample your fellow man to death in search of bargains.

That's not what you or I said. You were wanting to outlaw certain kinds of sales and waiting in line for hours.

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

Yup. Are you familiar with the concept of a doorbuster? A very low price on a limited stock. It encourages they kind of behavior that killed a man today. At best you get fights on the floor between customers over the last few items. Ban it.

Additionally, encouraging people to camp out in the parking lot brings in an element of danger. These are not campers, these are people spending a cold night sitting on concrete. With no security. Ban it.

[notthebuddha.livejournal.com]

I know all about these, and have been on various sides of each. I can't see that it's so important to ban adult people from making poor decisions. I especially can't see you, someone who has borne arms to defend our freedoms, wanting to curtail them over an accidental death, however unpalatable or preventable.

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

Oh, please. This isn't a matter of freedom of speech, or the right to vote. This is greed and stupidity leading to an unnecessary death. One that could have been prevented by hiring security to control the lines, not having limited sales, and actively discouraging people from massing at the moment of the sale starting.

[notthebuddha.livejournal.com]

This isn't a matter of freedom of speech, or the right to vote.

I'll point out that Revolutionary War hostilities began over arbitrary interference in matters of commerce.

actively discouraging people from massing at the moment of the sale starting.

You seem to be unclear on the concept of "sale", as encouraging people to come spend money now instead of later is the entire point of having one.

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

OK, you are really pissing me off. The American Revolution did not start over petty commerce matters, the wider cause was a lack of representation in Parliament.

And then you get insulting. Yes, I understand sales. I've worked retail several times in my life and also understand that you can have a great sale without people dying. The current Black Friday model encourages mob thinking. It demands that people push and shove, and every year people get hurt in the press. Fuck commerce. Peoples' lives are more important than whatever crap Wal*Mart was pushing yesterday.

You do understand that a young man died yesterday, right? He was killed by being trampled. That means multiple broken bones and contusions. But that's not what usually kills people in these situations. The weight of the persons stomping on him prevented him from breathing. He suffocated on the floor of Wal*Mart, unable to move.

Congress has the power to regulate commerce. The State of New York has the same power. End the doorbusters, and require stores to either ban overnight camping in line or force them to provide adequate crowd control. The bracelet system kshandra describes should be universal.

[kshandra]

It's been almost 20 years since Ticketmaster instituted the wristband system for major on-sale events. This was done after numerous, vociferous complaints that scalpers were lining up as much as 72 hours before an on-sale and purchasing all available tickets (even with purchase limits in place) before people actually interested in attending the event could get to the counter.

Numbered wristbands are issued in random order at points of sale, starting roughly 36 hours before the on-sale date/time. Wristband holders are NOT allowed to line up outside until the morning of the sale, generally 2 hours prior, and line up sequentially. Roughly half an hour before the tickets go on sale, the points of sale receive The Number. Sales associates (or occasionally, security guards) will go out to the line, count off that number of people, and send them to the back of the line of wristband holders.

Were there complaints about the system? Of course there were. I was working at a TicketBastard outlet at the time, and even I had issues with it. But a solution had to be found.

Certain of the Black Friday vendors were doing something similar this year, walking the line before the store opened with vouchers for the exact number of $SALEITEM they had, and once those were handed out, that was IT.

[lysana.livejournal.com]

A computer chain that I believe is now extinct did something similar but less formalized with their grand opening deals. First in line got the goods. If you wanted something that was already claimed by the time they got to you before it opened, tough noogies. If you were in the right range, you got the voucher you needed to claim the bargain.

[notthebuddha.livejournal.com]

This makes plenty of sense, and doesn't involve arbitrary legalism for the win.

[notthebuddha.livejournal.com]

Getting into the show? The Who in Cincinnati back in 1979 or thereabouts.

Lots more (http://www.crowddynamics.com/Main/Crowddisasters.html), from all over the world.

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

Over half of those are the result of physical failures (walls collapsing, etc.) or have a clear cause not related to a surge (a riot breaking out, hailstorm, armed bandits in the stands.)

[notthebuddha.livejournal.com]

...which is still many, many more than the single Who show you mentioned. As for "riot breaking out", are you saying this doesn't count as a riot? *boggle*

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

Nope. Riots are the breakdown of social order. Characterized by random violence, looting, and vandalism. A riot may be directed at a perceived target (see the White Night Riot in San Francisco) or result from a large crowd getting out of control (see The Lakers Riot) or from a spontaneous reaction to an event (see the Rodney King Riot)

In this case, people, once in the store, shopped. They queued up, and up until the manager shut the place down were ready to pay for their purchases. Most didn't know that someone had been killed.

End the doorbusters. Or you can go tell the family of Jdimytai Damour that his death was just part of the American experience.

Oh, one thing about that list you posted? The majority of stampedes happen in Third World shitholes. We're supposed to be slightly more advanced than them. After The Who stampede, most venues with limited access changed their policies on festival seating. In some places, laws were enacted requiring such changes.

And yet the Republic survived.

[notthebuddha.livejournal.com]

It's now being reported his death was the result of people breaking into the store before opening time - which is already a crime, of course.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression I was trying to insult you or otherwise attack you personally. I respect your opinion on most things, and I wouldn't have gotten so exercised if I didn't otherwise value what you have to say.